[00:04:09] Melanie: Alrighty. So, today we’re welcoming Corey Tutt. He’s a proud Kamilaroi man. He’s also the 2020 New South Wales, Young Australian of the Year. He’s the founder of Deadly Science, which is an initiative that provides science books and early reading material to remote schools in Australia. Deadly Science recently was awarded the department of industry science, energy and resources, Eureka prize for stem inclusion. Welcome 

[00:04:38] Corey: Yama and thank you for that. 

[00:04:40] Melanie: Oh, you’re so absolutely welcome. We were delighted to learn about the First Scientist, but, first we learned about Deadly Science because obviously your organization and ours, working in a very similar space.

But before we get into all of that, I’d love to learn. More about you and how it is that you came to establish your own charity and then, you know, go on and write a book. So what’s your story, Cory? 

[00:05:09] Corey: Well, actually it starts, it starts probably from when I was around two years old. My father, unfortunately left my mother at two. And, it meant that I grew up with my older sister and, and my mom, often we, couch surfed and moved around a lot. And, it was really hard. For me as a, as a baby, because, my grandmother’s mom refused to hold me because she thought, I was named after an Aboriginal man and, and I was Aboriginal.

So my mum didn’t get a lot of support and my nan died when she was 42. But I had always had a love of nature and because we’re moving around a lot, I absolutely loved, you know, Catching lizards in the backyard. That was my favorite thing to do. And we all know like a little kid that does that.

 For me moving around a lot, whilst I was going to school in belie, and this is an important point and part of my story, You know, I witnessed a fatal accident that, tragically led to the death of my classmate. That was, that was hit and killed, And I think that that is the moment where I became a very empathetic person and, you know, I always, you know, if I ever got in trouble on the playground or something, I always felt guilty and always, it was very sad and I was always empathetic. So I think moments like that make you, make you really strong and name they, they make you either do one or two things. I guess probably to regress a bit in your behavior, which I probably did that a little bit. But also they, they make you appreciate life because you realize how, how finite and how, how life can be taken away from you. Very, very quickly.

 I remember my pop gave me a book not long after that, which was Reptiles in Colour, Harold Cogger and that’s the book that taught me how to read. You know, I learned how to read and my first ever science experiment was chasing water dragons into a dam and getting a stopwatch and, and timing how long they can hold their breath under water. And it was about an hour. So, you know, those things are the things that bring you joy in life. And they brought me joy. 

 You know, I sat across my careers advisor at 16 and I, he said, what do you want to be when you leave school? And that’s a pretty good question. And I said that, I wanted to be a zoo keeper or wildlife documentary. Cause I was reared on Harry Butler, I wanted to be the first black fellow version but, you know, I was told by my career’s advisor, that kids like you, cause I went to a school in Dapto (Wollongong NSW). Kids, like you don’t really go to university or, or do those kinds of things. It’s going to be really hard for you. You should probably stick to a a trade, or you end up in jail or worse. And that was said to me to, to probably spur me on, to be, you know, to go. Probably get a trade and, but I was a very determined kid, even when I was young. I remember I got told that I was too small for a football team, so I literally tackled every player on that team. Just so I could make the team and. You know, I, I wouldn’t take no for an answer. If someone said I couldn’t do anything, I would take it really personally. And I would prove them wrong and not much has changed. 

I’ll always had a respect for the strong women in my life because I had a really strong sister and I had a strong mom and, they didn’t have the best, my sister and I didn’t have the best upbringing, but we, we may do what we had. 

I left school at 16 and I went to a place called Boyup Broke in Western Australia. And I worked at this now, defunct wildlife sanctuary,Roo Gully. And, and I don’t want to be rude, but, it was kind of like disorganized chaos. And I liedabout my age. I said I was 17. I said I was doing animal studies and I’d signed up for animal studies and I did it on the plane on the way there didn’t do any of the modules. I’d literally just did it, all the assignments on the plane over there and rush them. And I ended up passing some miracle I passed, but when I went over to West Australia for the first time I stayed with this couple called Jim and Norma and Jim and Norma are nolonger with us, unfortunately, but they were the first people that showed me any kind of love as a child.

And then basically what happened was I came back to. New south Wales, just after my 17th birthday. And I started working at this place called narrow wildlife park, which is now known as Shoalhaven Zoo. And, it was an interesting place. I was keen as mustard and the first day I went there they told me to get there at 8am and I got there at 7am and I was just sitting inside. I was waiting for my chance to, you know, to achieve this dream that I’d had of being a zookeeper. And, the zookeeper said to me, he’s like, why are you so keen?

You know, you’re going to be scrubbing toilets all morning. And I’m like, I didn’t care. I was just happy to be there and he would say, oh, you know, you’re not capable of doing this. But I would always just always outdo him and prove him wrong. And if he said I couldn’t rake fast, I’d be there the next day, raking twice as fast and I’ll be doing it even better. I worked my butt off to, to prove it wrong. 

Then I’d become friends with a guy down there that we became really good friends. Cause we, you know, he volunteered there and we really liked reptiles and he’d left the zoo, but we’d stayed in contact and we were deciding that we’re going to live together. And then unfortunately he, he, he made a really bad decision one night before we were meant to move in together and he, had hung himself. And committed suicide and, that whole love of animals made me unique and cool. And, when you lose that enjoyment for things, it’s a pretty scary time because, you know, I’m very passionate about animals and nature. And, for me, I’d lost that completely. And it was like, I reckon it would have been easy to lose a limb, to be honest. Because at least when you lose a limb, you understand what you’ve lost. And for me, I, it took me a really long time to work out that I was a broken person, you know, And I saw, I was sort of, I wasn’t having fun at the zoo anymore.

And I ended up. I ended up seeing an ad in the Illawarra Mercure for an alpaca handler , and I feel a bit stupid now because I wore my year 10 formal suit, which was a classic suit that I got from Lowe’s. And you know, I was a bit of a Good Charlotte fan back then. So I, to give you an idea of what it looked like, I had, you know, a white top hat, a black shirt, white suspenders and white tie and white belt, black pants and white volleys.

And it was a bit of a look at the time, but it was extraordinary. It was back when good Charlotte were popular. I’m 

[00:11:10] Melanie: sorry. More people should wear an outfit. Like. 

[00:11:12] Corey: Oh, yeah, for sure. So I wore this to my alpaca interview. I thought I’d get the job. I thought it looked really good and I feel a bit stupid now because I ended up, becoming, I ended, he ended up saying to me straight away, like start Monday and he’s, and then eventually later on I’m like how many people actually applied for that?

And he goes, you were the only one. And I’m like, I literally went to this guy’s house, wearing a suit, to apply for a job that no one else had applied for that. Obviously going to get, 

[00:11:37] Melanie: I’ll bet he still tells that story till today. That’ll be one, that’ll be a Friday night drinks one. 

[00:11:43] Corey: Yeah. There’s a really good podcast of James Dickson and I, and it’s called walking together and it’s, it’s about, you know, me being an indigenous person, him being a non-indigenous person and how we had this journey together.

And, Yeah, I’m not going to sugar coat James sidebar life, because I was, I was probably really depressed at that stage. And I was looking for someone to open up to, and I didn’t really have anyone that I could open up to. You know, it wasn’t like. I had my best friend here. That was, he wasn’t alive, you know, he was dead.

And I didn’t really have anyone. I didn’t really have anyone I could confide in. It wasn’t like it was something that was advertised. It was, it was really hard and, and suddenly those, those things that happened when I was a child, they started to come back, you know, and things that I suppressed phages and I guess.

Yeah, the moment I realized I was a resilient person, was the moment where the first, alpaca we shaw together I think it was called Pikachu at the time, and might have a different name now, but it head-butted me in the face and cracked my cheek bone. And I remember James asking me if I was alright I something in me just kept me going and it just like, it kept me going. And I knew that I couldn’t quit on this job because if I quit it on, if I quit on this job, I w would have been quitting on life. And, I kept going and we went around Australia and New Zealand together and we sheared Alpacas. And it made me, you know, it made me strong as a man. It made me, you know, able to be, to be able to give my opinions in a respectful way. You know, and I think James was very much like a father I never had.

 But you know, it was, I was always driving myself for the next big thing, because I was never content with just being, you know, just being in an Alpaca shearer I never wanted to do that. I just, you know, for me, and even being a zookeeper wasn’t enough, you know, it was never enough. And, and maybe that’s just the drive in me to, to overcome. You know, the adversity that I’ve overcome, but also that I never really wanted people to tell me what I couldn’t couldn’t do.

And I wanted to be the maker of my own existence, so to speak. Did 

[00:13:41] Melanie: you have, did you have a, at that stage, a bigger picture idea of where you were heading or was it a crooked path, quite opportunistic that led you from one point to another? 

[00:13:53] Corey: It was opportunistic. I I’d had a friend, you know, from zookeeper and get a job at the RSPCA and, I really needed a job at that point because I decided that I wasn’t going to have another year of shearing because it served its purpose for me. I mean, there’s only so many alpacas or lamas you can shear, once you’ve sha you know, once you’ve shown, you know, a few thousand of them, then it’s, it’s kind of served its purpose and, 

[00:14:16] Melanie: and ask what’s a ballpark figure on the, how many alpacas you’ve shared.

[00:14:21] Corey: Oh, we used to do 10,000 a season. So I’d say it’s probably between 30 or 40,000. 

And, I didn’t anticipate it, but I saw the very best and worst in humanity at that point, when I worked at the RSP CA because I had seen, you know, dogs and cats get rehomed to the most loving people. But then I was at the same time, I was seeing humans, humans, treat animals, just so abhorently, and then that was the things that, those are the things around that, that like, you know, you couldn’t really get your head around it. Like you couldn’t get your head around, like how someone could, could go and purchase a dog off a breeder or a pet shop. And then, six months later, they’re shoving it in a cage out of the front of the RSP CA with no food, no water, and treating their animals so badly. When they bring us so much joy, like I used to love that job in the sense of, I used to go into the paddocks and kick the soccer ball around with the dogs and, I really loved it. And Bouncer was a unique story. Had his throat cut by, this nasty individual but he was just dumped in a bin and literally, required hours and hours and hours of surgery to just to survive. He was really beautiful. I, he gave me a lot of hope for humanity in the sense of life and, and life because, here’s this dog that’s going through so much adversity, yeah, it doesn’t hold grudges.

And I actually learnt a lot from that dog. In the sense of like, if a dog can not hold grudges towards humans for what humans have done to it, then what is my excuse for holding grudges? 

[00:15:53] Melanie: You know, sometimes I think our pets are our greatest

teachers.

[00:15:56] Corey: Definitely, definitely they very much so. I ended up meeting my, my partner and my fiancé at that animal shelter. And I’ve never looked back since.

 I ended up studying animal technology and I went to, the Garvin (The Garvan Institute of Medical Research) at first and I worked with Garvan as animal technician. And I ended up getting a job at the University of Sydney and, that’s how the Deadly Science stuff started I figured that, you know, whilst I’m still young, I can go and speak to some of these kids and maybe, you know, if they’re going through similar things and they want to potentially find a career in science. And, and then we started the science talks and they just went off.

They became really popular, like extremely 

[00:16:33] Melanie: Were they face-to-face. So this is definitely yup. Yeah. And groups that are settings? So like a, a large audience, or 

[00:16:41] Corey: It was a large audience. It was, between, you know, like there was 20 or 30 kids and this was previously with the AIM Program, but then the AIM Program stopped doing the face-to-face stuff. And I continued to do these talks and these kids would come from Alex Park. They’ll come from Redfern, they’ll come from Waterloo and would just talk about stuff. You know, how does a blue tongue have a blue tongue? Like how do we get food to the space station? You know? So far I didn’t even know about. So I started like learning and reading textbooks and things like that. Just to have new things to talk about on a Friday afternoon.

And, they went really well. And then I had, had one of the kids, talk to me. I think he might’ve been a Monroe boy and he said to me, why is it that, why is it that you’re investing so much time in us and talking about science when none of our teachers are. You’re the only one that’s saying we can do science.

And I wish I got given like animal books when I was a kid, because I really want to be a zookeeper like you were. And that, that made me be teary at the time. You know, it really affected me because I was like, well, I’ve got to do something about this. So I started Googling remote schools. And then this thing called Deadly Science was born.

And I started finding out that our schools are just really under resourced, like those school that I found with 15 books and it’s whole school. 

[00:17:52] Melanie: Inredible 

[00:17:53] Corey: and I have, you know, schools every single day or every week approaching me to be part of Deadly Science because of the lack of resources. 

[00:18:01] Melanie: Everything I heard in a previous interview that you personally went into a bookstore and threw down a thousand dollars to get a whole bunch of books to send.

[00:18:11] Corey: It was not uncommon for me to do that. Not uncommon at all. I spent a lot of time, buying books and packing books and 

[00:18:19] Melanie: what’s the book that you’ve bought and packed the most? Do you think, apart from your own.

[00:18:23] Corey: I’ve actually got a book next to me that I send.

I’m sorry, it’s got a receipt. This book here. As you can see 

[00:18:28] Melanie: upside down? 

[00:18:29] Corey: Yeah. This book is by, Sami, Sa mi Bayly and she’s, she writes all these really cool funky animal books. And I’ll say that she’s got three of these out at the moment and they’re just, they’re just got beautiful illustrations in them. And really cool party facts. I would say that like her books are probably up there with the ones that I would send out the most. Matt Chan, Thomas Mayer as well. All these authors they’re probably at the top. But like I I’ve moved on from like, I don’t just send books. I send telescopes, I send microscopes, I send solar kits, I send construction kits.

 I send veggie patches. I send everything because our kids deserve to be able to find, you know, whatever, whatever they need and their passions. So, Yeah, we all had different flavors. We all have different needs and wants and, and passions. And, so that’s why Deadly Science works. We send stuff that, you know, mathematics stuff, we send chemistry, we send all of it because. It doesn’t matter what your flavor is or what you like is that you should have the opportunity to explore what your passion is. And that’s basically providing these children with the opportunity to find, to find their passion. And that’s the most important thing. 

[00:19:39] Melanie: And if listeners were interested in supporting your work through Deadly Science, how can they do that?

[00:19:45] Corey: They can chuck us a donation, which is greatly appreciated so they can help us purchase more resources. They can volunteer their time at us. They can, share us on social media, like us follow, you know, because the more people that find out about the work that is being done, the closer we get to the person that may be out to support us properly in terms of, you know, providing us with, with large philanthropic donation or, or, you know, maybe they’ve got some kits themselves and they can send, them schools. So it’s just important that even if you can’t donate that any you dig what I’m saying and you love it, you just follow us as well, because you’re doing your bit as well. And this, you know, our greatest strength is our advocacy because, the images we generally see are people in lab coats, so your Thomas Edison’s and your Albert Einstein’s and I’m sorry, they’ve had their time in the sun. It’s time to as Australians, as the world, talk about , the world’s oldest living culture, 65,000 plus years of science and engineering and mathematics. 

[00:20:45] Melanie: Yeah. Oh, look, we talk about decolonizing engineering at Engineers Without Borders. We have a ‘Pathways’ project, which the first stage started this year. And we’re basically. Documenting and researching, the need for the engineering sector, both businesses and individuals, non-indigenous people to change and then looking at what that actually requires.

So, how do we shape an engineering profession? That’s tangible, relevant and possible for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, you know, how do we have safe culturally inclusive workplaces? And you know, what, what would a decolonized engineering sector look like? 

[00:21:22] Corey: Well, for one, it starts with no longer defining, you know, who wears a hard hat and, and why?

It’s, it’s about positive engagement. It’s about the right language. It’s the right, you know, we’re not doing this to feel good. We’re doing this because it’s the right thing to do. And, you know, sometimes the best journeys start with was that we don’t want to hear. And, and those was that we don’t want to hear generally, this isn’t really applicable to Aboriginal people because it’s built on a white system. Sometimes the best journeys are those walked together and, you know, we need to listen. And when you’re listen to our Aboriginal communities, our schools, what is it that we need to do to make it more, to make engineering safer for people of color, safer for women safer for, you know, our LGBTQ community, how do we make it safe?

And it’s not just putting, you know, well, it’s not just doing a Reconciliation Action Plan (RAP) because sometimes when we do a RAP plan, we forget about the action sometimes the best actions done with your ears and then preparing for that. So I think that, you know, we have a lot to do as a society in terms of making things equal and fair.

In engineering we do in science, we do, I myself have to improve in areas that, you know, The best journeys of those walk together. And, and they are, you know, and that, and this is what we need to do as a society. We need to walk hand in hand with First Nations people and, and say, you know what, the past wasn’t okay, but let’s celebrate, the culture. Let’s celebrate the, the beautiful things that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people bring to this country. And it’s not. Sport and art, you know, let’s, let’s encourage kids. Let’s, let’s give kids recognition for things other than sport and art 

[00:23:16] Melanie: absolutely. Last year we worked with a group from our sector to establish Engineers Declare, which is the sector’s response to the biodiversity and climate crisis. And it was absolutely key when we wrote out the declaration to ensure that, we were, acknowledging First Nations, as the original engineers. And just to go to what you said about, about the listening how do we listen and learn from Aboriginal peoples, you know, original engineering practices and their deep, deep and lasting knowledge? How do we weave that into our engineering practice? 

[00:23:53] Corey: Yeah, for sure. And part of that is going on the journey, we have in Australia, you know, the world’s oldest fish traps, which are 40,000 years old, but the pyramids are only 4,000 years old. How can we celebrate the pyramids if we’re not going to celebrate the oldest structures in the world that are right here in Australia, we need to start acknowledging them.

And to do that, we need to acknowledge the terrible history that comes with that as well. But when you acknowledge the bad and you, you accept responsibility for the things you’ve done wrong, you also get to enjoy some of the things that we’ve done, right. 

[00:24:25] Melanie: Absolutely.

Well in turning to your incredible book, which is called. ‘The First Scientist: deadly inventions and innovations from Australia’s First Peoples’, with beautiful illustrations by Blak Douglas. They really caught my eye and I’m sure every person who’s picked up the book would say the same. I’m just curious do you have, a favorite first in the book? 

[00:24:50] Corey: I like all the books, but that would be unfair for me to say, because I wrote the thing, but 

[00:24:55] Melanie: I think that would be fair. 

[00:24:57] Corey: Now I wrote about a lot of my deadly scientists in the book towards the back of the book and, and I wanted to make it relevant. So not just talk about the past, like it’s not here, but also talk about the present science, the Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people are doing in this book. But to see their faces, you know, when they get to see themselves in a book, you know, like for me, Like, imagine you imagine back to when you were a kid and you’re picking up a science book and you see Albert Einstein in there, but you don’t see David Ripon, you know, Australia’s greatest inventor.

He’s on a $50 note. Now, if you were to be a young kid and you were to see yourself in a book, imagine what that does for you as. To know that other kids around Australia potentially around the world are going to be reading about how you love science in your classroom. What are proud moment! And it’s like, you know, and the kids of color to see themselves as scientists is, is something. I hope that is life-changing because they deserve it. And anything, any accolades that come to me or Deadly Science along the way are completely irrelevant unless we make it our responsibility to make those awards accessible to them. 

[00:26:06] Melanie: I’ve seen some beautiful images by social media of the children’s celebrating, receiving their first copies, you know, coated up in the white lab coat. Yeah. Just really celebrating the success of the book as success of themselves. It’s been really heart warming to see.

And imagine what that does to kids. Right. You talk to him and you put on a lab. Suddenly, you’re not, you’re not a child, you’re not in a school anymore. You’re a scientist. And without sounding egotistical, but without deadly science and without me working with that school, I doubt that that would have happened.

Yeah,

[00:26:43] Corey: that is a very special thing for me because. I think that that’s up there with teaching kids, how to rate in, in the greatest achievements of my life. I’m 29. And I have created something that, that kids in remote communities are finding their passions for. And they’re just absolutely loving it.

And, and you know what they’re doing at the same time they’re doing what I did when I was a kid. When people told me I couldn’t do things and they’re proving them wrong. 

[00:27:12] Melanie: So important. Yeah. It’s very special. Absolutely. 

 I wouldn’t mind going to just a couple of questions around , before you wrote this book and you were conceptualizing, what kind of impact were you hoping to achieve? Why was it important that you write this book? 

[00:27:30] Corey: I’ve sent over 20,000 resources off to remote schools now, I’ve spent majority of my time every week in post offices, sending books. I wanted to create something that was going to be a gift to the next generation in the sense that non-indigenous kids learning about Aboriginal people in a way that they have never learned about Aboriginal people before, in the hope that they would respect our people more . That’s the hope. But on the other side of the coin, I wanted Aboriginal kids to grow up in Australia, feeling strong, deadly, passionate, because they could see themselves as scientists and, and coming from the world’s first scientists. And, I didn’t care if one copy sold or a million or whatever, it didn’t matter. As long as it was a book I could send out to those kids that would help change it for them. And the idea in my head was to, to make it accessible. And not worry about the politics. Work with who, you know, and work with people that will help you write this book and do it well and do it in a respectful way.

And let’s, let’s change the future. Let’s, let’s give these kids a bit of inspo to, to try to strive and achieve and, and, and a book they’ll enjoy. When I came up with the idea. I probably had eight or nine books that I could have written. There was so much, I wrote, so many people I spoke to, but I want this book to be not about me as an author, but to be the thing that people look back in 10 to 20 years time and say, you know what? That book led to a whole new conversation, which led Australia to becoming a better place. 

[00:29:09] Melanie: Wow. Oh, audacious goals. 

[00:29:11] Corey: But you know, and I think that that’s, that’s why it’s written in the way. 

[00:29:15] Melanie: Yeah, which is remarkable. And also to see a book that’s targeted to that age group, that’s seven to 12 where, you know, their ideas of self are really forming. They’re starting to forecast, you know, who and what they want to be in the world. 

Actually, that, that is one question I was hoping that we can squeeze in, in terms of engaging with, the people, the communities, the schools, the children who helped, formulate this book. What was that process like? How did you go about that? 

[00:29:46] Corey: Yeah, it was quite challenging at times. There was a lot of conversations. There was a lot of hard conversations. There’s a lot of emailing back and forward. There’s a lot of excitement. I knew I had to write about the Robinson river kids. And I knew I had to write about the many Alec kids I knew I had to write about, you know, the Grid Island kids that we work with. I wish I could have put them all in the book to be honest, but I. Well, I knew I had to put them in there because what they were doing, you know, and again, I’m not get all the accolades for what these kids are doing, they’re changing the future for their people and they, and they’re doing it and they’re doing it with a smile on their face face, and they’re doing it without, you know, with the, like, with the most joy. And, and I think that, it’s just really important for, for young people to, to realize that they are, you know, they’re making these changes and it’s a big deal. Like it’s a really big deal. So we at Deadly Science. We celebrate them any time, any chance we get. And, and again, the other thing as well is that when you, when you flick on your news and you flick on your newspaper or whatever, but yeah, majority, the images you see of Aboriginal kids is negative.

So. Who’s telling the good stories, because to be negative, to have negative stories, you must have good stories. And, I think that’s something that Deadly Science does really well is that we tell the stories of the kids that are loving remote learning. They’re loving school. They’re, they’re loving science and you’re are, will defend them to the teeth because they deserve to have a future where they’re not persecuted due to their race.

[00:31:17] Melanie: Well, Corey, we’re just about at time. I just use the last couple of minutes, for the guests to do a shout out, for anything that they’re passionate in, our podcast is called ‘The Actioneers,’, love to hear things that you’re taking action on, be it, your book and your charity or otherwise. But yeah, it’s just a shout out moment for you to soapbox.

[00:31:38] Corey: Yeah, Chuck us the follow on Deadly Science or whatever your social media platform is, but also, check out the women in stem movement, check out Indigenous Literacy Foundation, check out your, your local Aboriginal community and see what they’re getting up to, and, and shout out to all the mob out their, that may be.listening. 

[00:31:55] Melanie: Amazing. Corey, thank you so much for sharing your story, for being vulnerable with us. For taking us on a journey, which was, eventful, it was wild. It was deadly. And congratulations so much on the success of your book. The First Scientists. 

[00:32:11] Corey: Thank you so much for having me. It’s an absolute pleasure. 

Thanks Corey, 

Melanie: Hello, and welcome to The Actioneers my name is Melanie Audrey from Engineers Without Borders Australia. Today, I have two special guests with me Chris Chukwunta and Milda Pladaite. Chris is the vice-president of the international renewable energy systems. Inc. Chris is a United nations affiliated technical reviewer and national delegate at the world Federation of engineering organizations and served as an appointed trustee at the Imperial college union trustee board member of the trustee board governance committee amongst other things

Welcome Chris.

Chris: It’s a pleasure to be here. 

Melanie: And Milda represents the institution of civil engineers at the world Federation of engineering organizations, young engineers, and future leaders committee, where she set up a global young engineers working group on SDG 13. She led the preparation of the Cop 26 Joint Statement of International Youth Organizations and presented it with the working group volunteers to the party delegates. Welcome Milda. 

Milda: Hello. Thank you.

Melanie: Milda you and I met just last week, actually. But I met your colleague Michelle a few weeks, earlier via email, when your group approached EWB representing the World Federation of Engineering Organizations and the Young Engineers Working Group on Climate Action.

And Michelle was offering or hoping that EWB would sign the Cop 26 Joint Youth Statement. We were thrilled to sign the statement. It was. Just really clear, really powerful and aligned with our mission and our values. And I was so inspired by the work of your group that I asked somebody to come on the podcast, and you’ve introduced me to Chris.

I’m just delighted to have you both here and I’d love to start as we do with a bit about your story. I mean, you’re clearly young people who are leaders in your field. How did you come to be advocating so strongly and effectively for climate action? 

Milda: Yeah. So a little bit about my background and my story, which I didn’t I didn’t think that it will lead to, to leading this working group.

So I’m from Lithuania where I graduated school in wellness and I always was more interested in history, literature. I graduated art and music schools so far from engineer. But when I was at 12th grade, I went to visit my friends who were studying engineering and in the United Kingdom. And I was so impressed by what they were studying by the university, but I had no doubts, but I have to apply for one university to engineering.

And civil engineering was the closest to my heart. It is a very interesting to study engineering because it’s challenging. I don’t remember other reasons which led me to choose engineering, but I clearly remember that I thought it was challenging, and this is why I want to study this.

Melanie: Such a change from literature and music through to a stem career path. That’s an extraordinary switch. 

Milda: Exactly, but I never regretted it, and I’m always very happy to speak with students, with children who are thinking what to study. And I always advocate for engineering career because it’s so broad. So diverse with engineering degree, you can more easily even then go and study finance late if you’re interested and what I’ve noticed about the stem skills, but technical skills, which I learned are always valid in every company I worked for. 

Melanie: Thanks Milda. And what about you, Chris? 

Chris: Yeah. So for me I think the inspiration came at a very early age.

So I was born in Nigeria. It’s a, in a small city called legals and the west African coasts. And I had my early education also in Nigeria. So the desire to be an engineer, came from just looking around. Um, uh, So I’ll tell a story. So there was one time I had just come out of primary school. And then my dad and I went to the ministry of education to go do some sort of processing for my secondary education. So we got into a lift. It was the first time I had left the part of the city that wasn’t really so developed to go to a place where you’ve got like a 12 story building. So we got into an elevator and it took us all the way to the top.

And I was like, yeah, I want to be able to operate the elevator myself. Of course my dad, let me do a bit of touching, but he was also careful to make sure we got to the place quite on time. So when I saw that and looked around and saw the things that could be potentially be built by people, I started to ask my dad, what, what sort of profession would build these kind of things. And that started the whole excitement around engineering and specifically civil engineering. In Nigeria, though the part of the industry that paid you a lot for work done is the oil and gas. So by the time I was old enough to make a decision, I thought, I think in more oil and gas. I got introduced to volunteering very early to the Nigerian Society of Engineers, and had the opportunity to lead the Young Engineers Forum in Nigeria for four years, where I also got nominated to represent Nigeria at the World Federation of Engineering Organizations.

It’s been almost clear from the start that I was going to be an engineer. And what led me to this point I would say was the opportunity that I got from leaders at the world traditional engineering organizations to facilitate the global stakeholders engagement for youth integration around the world.

So this led me to the middle east in Kuwait to Peru in South America and to Europe Rome and just moving around and seeing the inequities that. You know, coming from Africa, going to the middle east and then coming up to Europe and traveling the world just made me see that there’s a huge opportunity for youth integration in industry both from the perspective of young engineers, young scientists looking to make a difference and also from least developed countries, particularly where there’s quite a lot of gap to potential in, you know, things that could potentially be built.

So that was, that was what led me to this point. In terms of career, I worked in the oil and gas most of my career, but just recently transitioned into the renewable energy industry because I see a strong need for the change in how we assess and utilize energy. And I’m really very passionate about driving discussion and that change whenever I get the opportunity. So this is what keeps me up at night. This is what I’m passionate about now. 

Melanie: Chris, I’m interested in how you’ve transitioned from oil and gas to renewables and wondering whether your experience initially has been invaluable for informing the work that you do now, Where there any conflicts of interests that you had working in, in the fossil fuel industry?

Chris: Yeah. So I think that’s a fantastic question, Melanie. So one thing, I had the opportunity to see in the oil and gas is I worked in difficult environments. I worked in the Niger Delta in Nigeria for the rest of my career, most of it. And one of the things that I saw was there’s a lot of potential that you could build working in the oil and gas. So the reason why it was easy for me to transition to the oil and gas was the the growth opportunities that I had, the exposure to business management that I had, and it’s not at the local level, but the global working with a multinational.

And I also had a lot of experience with business excellence practices with energy economics aside, the technical side of things. So with that sort of foundation, it was easy for me to transition. Now from an ethical perspective, I would say I had also a lot of respect for the ethics that we had in the oil and gas.

However, when I looked around and saw the impact of legacy decisions that have been made by oil and gas companies across board. It gives me cause to worry as an individual. And I thought there were things that could potentially have been done better, by the industry. For instance, if the industry has started thinking a bit earlier about the energy transition and talk more about how to manage the impact of our operations in in the coastal regions of Africa specifically the Niger Delta, I think there will be a lot more decisions that would have been useful in those regions so that you see sort of dilemma there for me. So I started thinking, okay, what, what can I do as an individual to, you know, to, to improve the situation of things both locally and internationally. And that’s what led me to that transition.

And I also felt I could do a whole lot more myself. And I’ll tell you the reason, so. In Nigeria, specifically, the best heads that you’ve got in the country are drawn to the oil and gas, because that’s where the pay is the big bucks right? So a lot of the guys who graduated with say first-class very high second-class Volpara degrees actually drawn into the oil and gas.

And as a result of that, the best, you know, technical experts that you’ve got the, the, the smartest guys in the, in the country working in oil and gas. And I felt if we have massive talent pool in the oil and gas, not leaving to push the renewable side of things forward, then we’re going to not meet up as a country and as a world, as we go towards the climate targets and climate action.

And, and I felt I could do more just moving away from the oil and gas. I’ve taken a massive knock on my salary. Yeah. And I’m happy to do this. This is, this is what I’m passionate about and I have no regrets whatsoever. Yeah. 

Melanie: Well, I think that that sort of comes down to where your ethics and your values are.

And so Milda, I’m just going back to you for a moment. You know, you left sort of the arts and you moved into civil. Were there, have you ever had a role where your ethics have been compromised or where you’ve learned something about your ethics from a role that you’ve had in your career?

Milda: Well, I think it’s Ethics. No, I didn’t have to compromise, but for example, what I’ve learned and I’m still learning, that with growing responsibilities, you sometimes need to decide and take actions where you cannot guarantee a hundred percent whether it will be the right thing to do or not, so sometimes it’s difficult, but with growing responsibilities, you need to take decisions which will only in, in the future, we’ll see, whether it was the right thing to do or not, but it doesn’t compromise, ethical behavior. But it’s more about what responsibility do we have, for example, in, in terms of contributing work to climate action and sustainability. 

Melanie: Well, I might use that as a segue to talk about you know, at the time that we’re recording this COP 26 has just wrapped up the conference sought to address that climate change is the greatest risk facing us all, their results from the conference have not been as effective as what we might’ve hoped.

And so I’m wondering with the, the joint statement and the movement of young socio-technical professionals who got behind that, what you were hoping to achieve with the joint statement and, and how did that go at COP 26 in Glasgow? 

Milda: Okay. I think it was a great start. So it was the first statement of its kind where we brought global young engineers community with global young professionals in finance, in policymaking to work together, to prepare and agree on what our objectives, which we believe are the most critical. We got experience how to present this, to COP parties to the member states and to see what is the role of our young professionals community. And the biggest question is how we can rather not challenge the country because I believe that the perception is moving towards but it’s seen as a global challenge and more and more countries believeit’s important to have a climate action agenda, very high on the on the political objectives.

But the question is how we can add positive value to this. How young professionals, young engineers can do that and COP26 was a very good start, but it was only a start. 

Melanie: It seemed to me that there were a number of youth delegations to Glasgow from different sort of sectors, but there wasn’t directly an incorporation of youth youthful voices in the negotiations. My understanding is that the youth weren’t actually not in, in the mix where the decisions were being made. Did you feel excluded? Did you feel like your voice and what this joint statement stood for, it was welcomed by people who had the decision to, to cast a vote in a particular direction? 

Chris: Yeah. So I would answer that question by saying what Milda said. So one of the things I would say came out clearly from the joint statements is the 12 policy recommendations that we made. And maybe also to give a sense of the organizations that were involved in pulling that together, Milda leading the charge. We had the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, youth NGO, it’s called YOUNGO.

We had the World Federation of Engineering Organizations, global young engineers working group on climate change, which Milda leads, and that’s has more than a hundred country’s, young engineers involved, and also more than30 million young professionals in the, in the World Federation of Engineering Organizations, we had the United Nations Mutual Group for Children and Youth. It’s the science policy interface platform. We had the World Bank group, Global Youth Climate Network. We had members of the United Nations secretary general youth advisory board on climate change. And, and a few delegates specifically one from Latvia who also was very active in the engagements, his name is Tyrils.

Now to pull that back to the question, we had 12 policy recommendations, and when we compare the outcome from. The COP and the policy recommendations, there’s a huge gap to what the youth are saying, they want to have and the outcome, one could argue just based on that, that even though you’ve attended, or young professionals attended, our voice is yet to be heard. So. The whole conversation for us was from the beginning, we’re thinking, how can we provide a unified voice in the COP discussions that is focused on climate change, mitigation, adaptation, and resilience, and also pull inclusive and meaningful policy making and implementation into the conversation with a focus on how it affects young people because youth and young professionals and children would be the most impacted by climate change. I think one thing that we realized just, I think it was also. Pleasant surprise. I would say was that we could actually, within the negotiations, walk up to the heads of delegations, the leaders of the constituencies, global leaders, specifically to demand what we want and put a bit of pressure.

 We had the opportunity to engage the Co-Presidents Alok Sharma the Secretary General of the United Nations, Antonio Gutierrez, John Carey the U S special presidential envoy for climate change at the COP or Nigel Toppins high level champion, who was overwhelmingly supportive of every of the policy recommendations we had and even did some presentations on social media and across the conversations that we had.

We had an engagement with France, Siemens, the vice president of European commission Zac Goldsmith, the UK Environment Minister. It was anyone that had a potential contribution or even a voice at the conference. We made sure to have an engagement or try to have an engagement with them, but at the end of the day, there’s a lot of things.

You know, when you listen to the negotiation and listen to the engagements, you realize that the countries that are involved also have their dilemmas, big dilemmas. I think bringing together this strong push that we’ve got on understanding that this is an existential threat for us, especially to also harmonize the needs with the dilemmas of the different participating countries. That is very, very key in, in the conversation. So as a summary, it’s not anywhere near where we want to be, but where I think in the right direction coming out of the co-op we, I think we are more connected as as, as youths, not just the guys who started the writing of the joint statement, but even the wider group of, of youths and representatives and leaders, and we’re thinking, okay, what can we do to improve our next outing?

So we’re doing things like sensitization, just so that youth, we understand the workings of the UNFCC, CC C and understand how COPS are organized. And the discussions that lead up to COP, because if we understand how the system works, then we are able to basically have a more meaningful conversation when we come out to subsequent COPs.

So we’re focusing on, you know, doing a lot of the things that youths will do, like doing simulations of actual court negotiations amongst ourselves, just to get us ready and abreast to have those conversations. We also share some of the things that we’ve learned from the COP 26 basically around lobbying beyond just activism, but also going beyond resilience to have conversations, to say, Hey, we understand the dilemma that you’re facing as constituencies as countries, but less dilemma into the perspective of our existential traits and take this conversation forward from there. . 

[00:18:54] Melanie: Wow. I’m in absolute amazement and I’m overwhelm at at how incredible you two are truly actioneers which obviously the name of our podcast.

When I was watching and listening to the presentations at COP 26, I actually wondered why there were presentations. I mean, it was lovely to hear. David Edinburgh. It was incredible to watch the speech from the I think she’s the president of Barbados and others obviously with the exception of the Australian delegation.

But what I wondered was why why do we have all this speech making? This seems to be such a waste of time, because actually they’re not saying anything that we don’t already know. And so I’m wondering if at the next cop, if that was dispensed of how do you think time could be better spent so that the outcomes and the voices of the youth who are the ones that are going to be carrying the burden of the crisis are better listened to, and the recommendations are incorporated in the outcomes of the next COP.

Chris: So one of the things that we learn personally, I learned, in the COP is the power of voices. And I’m basically hearing someone like David Attenborough speak and hearing, you know, all the world leaders speak and hearing them say the things that we already know, but more importantly, reminding the consequences and the heads of delegations and the parties of the need to take action think was very pivotal to get into some of the gains that we’ve gotten at the conference. 

 I think it is important to have those strong voices in the room pushing for action. And it’s also good to see that, you know, some of these leaders are saying the things that the youth have been saying, and a lot of, you know, policymakers who understand the existential threats beyond just their dilemmas have been saying.

So I think those speeches actually had an impact in my opinion. And I believe strongly that there are things that could happen better, in terms of focusing the negotiation beyond just the speeches as well. So I’ll give an example. So for instance, as an African, it’s easy to relate with the secondary dilemma beyond the primary dilemma that we’ve got, which is a global consensus to limit climate change and transition to cleaner energies, very quickly . So the dilemma for least developed countries is that there’s always that question of how quickly can least developed countries transition to clean energy without excess abating, the already very limited access to life’s most basic needs.

You need to be out in some of these least developed countries to understand this situation. So when they come to the COP and they say, Hey, we want to, we want to limit climate change. We understand the need for this, but if we do anything too quickly, guys who don’t have food, who don’t have water, who don’t have sanitation would basically not exist. So it’s an existential threats already for us, in least developed countries today. So when they talk about their situations, then you can pull that into the conversations and you have a more inclusive dialogue that actually solves the problem from the roots, for instance. So, I mean, there’s so many things that could potentially be said, but I can maybe pass on the mic to Milda and just hear her thoughts as well.

Milda: I think and that is my idea, which I hope that will also be taken forward later, but Cop 27 negotiations as one part very important two weeks, but the main work will be happening before. 

Chris: Correct. 

Milda: So we have one year and what I already suggested, to Chris we discussed that the most critical is to have a very close connection with those who have authority to to make those decisions.

But at the same time in Stanford quite often you want to negotiate and, and ask for, for the countries , to listen to what you aims for what objectives they are asking for countries to adopt. But I still believe that we should take the approach, seeing how we can support the countries to reach those objectives rather than asking for example to to fund the renewable energy, stop funding, fossil fuels projects. We should more ask how we can contribute. So for example, if one country is focused on investing in electric vehicles and hydrogen and alternative fuels, we would need to ask maybe their will be a lack of engineers or professionals in those fields.

And then what is the role of our global young professional platform, how we can contribute that we have enough of upskilled professionals in those fields. So I think that this approach as even more value, both I important first approach is to demand for countries to adopt. And second approach is to see how we can support countries in adopting and reaching, sustainability objectives.

Melanie: Your reply correlates with the way that Engineers Without Borders work. So we have a Technology Development Approach which has sitting under it human centered engineering philosophy. And so the work that we do in the Asia Pacific is responding to community’s needs, but not in a takeover way in a capacity building ways. So we have pro bono partners and we do a call out to the engineering sector for field professionals. And so field professionals will go in country, live with the people, work with the people, ideate with them, come up with solutions and ultimately aim to basically do themselves out of a job by skilling up you know, the local workforce to take over the work so that they step away.

And if I think of climate change and what you’re talking about and that type of approach at scale, theoretically, and, and hopefully you could, you can create a more equitable response to, you know, the climate inequity by, by doing such a thing in the face of a potential skills shortage in, in one discipline or one sector.

Chris: Indeed. So, so if I just add that Melanie, so so one of the biggest learnings that I got aligns with what Milda has said as well is it’s important to also listen to the dilemmas and the arguments of the national parties that may appear not to be pushing as proactively for climate action, as we would want them to, as young engineers, as young professionals the reason why it’s important to listen is then you can not just provide a reasonable challenge, but also provide a helping hand. So I’ll give an example. So the Chinese delegation, one of the arguments have been there that need to continue to meet the manufacturing needs of the world as a matter of national security for China. And why this is a matter of national security is the only way to keep the overall 1.4 billion Chinese nationals out of the above the poverty line and consequently off the streets in protests and totally disrupting the policy or policy is by doing this.

And if you scratch beneath the surface and have that conversation, you’d see, they just keep reeling out points and examples of how this is actually the case in China or with China. Now, listening to this, the question that we ask is what’s can young professionals in China and Asia Pacific do to push for climate action without significantly impacting, up to a point of disrupting the policy in China? So that’s an example, another example of one of the guys who were pushing for less , I don’t want to use the word proactive, but ambitious, less ambitious goals is Saudi Arabia. So Saudi Arabia said one of the arguments they said, as long as there is demand for oil and gas, they will continue to meet that demand.

And, and the reason why they say this is it’s almost like it’s the mainstay of the economy for Saudi Arabia. If they pull that off, then they all would, they will go into poverty. And I mean, looking at it at face value, it will look as though, Hey, these guys are not listening to all the things that we’re saying, but if you just scratch beneath the surface and say, If all the gas plants in the world are shut down today.

All the oil plants in the water shut down today. My family here, for instance, in Edmonton, in Canada, and a lot of families will not make it out of the winter. You know? So when you see that beyond just, oh, this is a Saudi Arabia problem to say, this is a problem that affects me , as an individual.

Then the question you want to ask would be, Hey what’s can we do to help you make the transition? And then you can also ask more questions. So looking at countries that have oil and gas has their means, they, they already have a plan of what’s they’re going to, their energy mix is going to look like in 2040, 2050, and maybe 2060, which is for instance, the commitment that was made by Saudi Arabia.

So do you have such a plan? Is there a way we can learn across borders to implement, or at least develop a plan to reduce your full dependence on oil and gas, or at least creates some policy direction or plan that will help you transition to cleaner energy forms? 

So in my mind, I think as young engineers, as young professionals, it is very, very important to basically look inwards first and say, what can I do to push for net zero, to not just net zero but for climate action. And then what can we do to help, all of these countries starting from our country, the ambitions that they’ve set and also push for more ambitious targets. So I’ll give an example, and this is really important. So I took apay cut personally, from my outset promising career in an oil and gas to go to renewable energy. I could have decided to stay, but I saw the need to take action.

And based on this choice, I, I took a concession and the concession was my remuneration. At home we’re reducing our carbon emissions by installing solar panels to achieve net zero power supply. So that way, at least there’s some action that I’m taking as an individual. And I have a clear plan to reduce my heating and transport to net zero hopefully by end of 2022. That’s individual, the choice of the food that we eat and our life style also needs to transition to green and healthier decisions. Right. So until we look inward first and make those micro changes or micro successes there’s very limited growth and, and would I say progress that we’ll make towards the wider macro decisions and targets?

Melanie: So what I wanted to say in response to that is how empowering your reframing of action is, and actually in a webinar that EWB hosted last year, we had a wonderful First Nations speaker, Arabella Douglas, and she encouraged everybody to go within much as you’re saying, because until you’ve gone within you, can’t go out.

And certainly you shouldn’t be going out into community until you have interrogated yourself and reconciled with yourself. And so just total agreement and respect for that reframing that actually there’s, there is something that we can do and it starts with ourselves and it is those micro changes.

I have a question, from our young engineers when it comes to influence. So let’s just say we’ve, we’ve made micro changes ourselves so how does a young engineer in the workplace who has passion and conviction, about climate change or any social or environmental justice issue that they care about, how do they influence their colleagues or senior decision-making makers in their organization to start creating meaningful change on those issues that they care about 

Milda: I think that the most important to understand what you’re passionate about, and it’s not difficult to make influence. You start from the smallest changes. And and then one people, colleagues around you see, that it has positive value, quite many people also wants to join and this is how the influence grows.

The key is just understand whether you is really you’re passionate about this, and I find for the climate action most young people and in general, everyone is, is usually interested in and and then start from the small changes speak with with colleagues who have a similar values discuss with enjoy the positive contribution you are making, and it will be only be growing then.

Melanie: And in your experience you know, you’re working at a global level. How did you get there? What steps did you take to be, you know, organizing a global statement and then be representing millions of, of young engineers and technical professionals at Glasgow? 

Milda: I think that it’s it’s it’s not difficult at all again, I think because it started by seeing that opportunity, but at World Federation of Engineering Organization who has a unique platform to connect the global community of uh, of young engineers, then how I started engaging with United Nations, young professionals. Also very simple the were only a few emails, few conversations, and it started growing, same with for GYC young professionals from a World Bank group, few emails, few meetings, we had the same vision, the same values. The question was how we can support each other to make a better impact. It’s just more about trying to reach people. And if you have a idea which you believe is quite simple to find the opportunities and find the people who have the same ideas you just need to take action. And then it’s starts evolving. So what happened with this working group? There were quite many volunteers who probably were adding even more value than I was. So this was a great thing to see that it was growing and it was useful. 

Melanie: Recently we’ve been working with Marlene Kanga who I, I know you both know on the new global engineering competencies, which of course have just been approved and the profiles, for the first time, now directly reference the UN SDGs, I’m wondering with those competencies now signed off and () (probably) poised to be rolled out, do you think that’s enough to encourage a profession which is traditionally quite conservative and slow moving to take the urgent action, that is the language , and need the climate crisis?

Chris: So I’ll take a stab at that one. One of the things that we usually look at is the needs, first of all, of the location, where the rollout is being done, and then we go out from there. So I think one of the things that is important is to sit back and say, Hey, what are the things that are problems that we have within maybe not problems, but what are the opportunities that we have within our area, within our location that we already have solutions. And how quickly can we deploy the solutions that way you knockoff all the front end development side of things, and you can very easily expedite action towards the actual execution. So that’s step one. The second step is, and I think this is one of the conversations that I had with a lady, a visiting professor from the Royal Academy of Engineering last week. Her name is Dawn Dawn Bonfield. So the question is how, and we do cross learning so that we can pull in some of the things that have been done in other locations too, that are either directly replicable in our location or. That’s we can just tweak a bit to make it replicable. So if we’ve got that very good collaborative efforts go in there, then there’s a huge opportunity for moving faster.

So we also knock off a lot of the front-end development and engineering side of things, and we can go straight into execution, of course, looking at the wider framework to non-technical risks as well. Then the last bits that I think is very important is the soft side of things. I mean, I’ll say Milda does it effortlessly, it doesn’t come as effortless to some of us. Right. We have to try to have connects most of the time they connect may not even work as we expect them to work, but I’m learning quite a lot from her and how to engage meaningfully. So it’s actually developing soft skills to be able to go beyond the technical, to understanding value propositions, understanding energy economics, and understanding how to more easily deploy some of these solutions that we’ve got.

The biggest bottlenecks we’ve got in deployments is bureaucratic. It’s more around policy development. It’s more around systems and structures and how to quickly go through those systems and structures like a, a hot knife to cheesecake. Right? So. How do we navigate the policy directions in such a way that we move very quickly and you do that by effective lobbying, knowing who to talk to knowing what their needs are, knowing what their expectations are and meeting those needs as quickly as we possibly can. And then we can expedite action more quickly. So technical understanding of what the issues are in our, in our own space. Number one, number two, having a good understanding of what other solutions are available around the world we can easily replicate. And number three, understanding what the policy environments looks like development, and more importantly implementation, and how to navigate all of those, having good conversations with the, the stakeholders involved and physically coming out very quickly at the other side.

Milda: I can also add I think it’s quite easier to add value if you, if you know exactly what you’re contributing to. Competencies varies significantly, depending on what country we are talking about, so we have young engineers professionals association in Uruguay the question, how they can add value to the climate action? What are the value we can add globally, but will the value will be tangible, probably not at this stage. So the question is what they can do at the national level to start. And then it also adds value to a global level. Small but positive change. Okay. So in Uruguay the question was what government is investing in what sustainable sectors they are investing? And we did the research, it will be electric vehicles. So then we have this platform where we can learn from, from different countries, from engineers, working in different countries.

And we had learned that China Chinese association is also one of our members have a great initiative for electric vehicles. So then our working group connected engineers with Chinese young engineers committee. So they could start sharing the knowledge. But then again we also need to bring young engineers into the policymaking so we are exposed to us and we connect the bomb and had a meeting with Uruguay government representatives who also were happy to to include the young engineers and also include them in the initiatives, what the national government is doing and investigate more how the young engineers can contribute to those initiatives, for the sustainability sectors, where the government is investing too.

So it’s, it’s a simple example, but I think it’s value and I still think that it’s not difficult. It’s just the most important is to connect with the right people and have that idea what you’re trying to achieve and also align this into what is happening at the national government level and the global level.

And then you always have a foundation that what you’re doing is in line, so that you’re not working in silo on your small initiative, which actually are not in line with anything, what is happening in at government. 

Chris: Yeah. So, so another story, because there are so many stories that could potentially be told, right?

So aside the one from Uruguay and China, there, there’s the one that I think really affects me personally. So in Nigeria today, there’s the massive droughts in the area, which is like the Northern part of the country. The major lakes that we have in that region is drying out. It’s called lake chad. 

It’s drying out and it’s forcing people to migrate from the Sahale area into the greener areas in the Savannah and in the rain forest that is in the Southern part of the country or the middle belt. No, We do some migration. You have, clashes because the guys who are in the middle belt and predominantly farmers, the guys coming from the Northern part of the country are predominantly herders.

Now when you’ve got a massive movement, moving down south, then you’d have, you know, cattle going into farms and totally destroying the crops. That’s the guys in the middle belts, for instance have. And as a result of that, they don’t have food to eat. You have scarcity of food from scarcity of food, there’s a inflation. Increase in insecurity and all that kind of stuff that comes from a massive migration that way. 

So I could expand on this quite a lot, but I’ll keep it short. What we did which happened by chance was I was out in Kuwait having a conversation with the Kuwait delegation and seeing how we can have youth integrated into industry more. And one of the projects that they were working on was a kind of hydroponic solution that works very well in the desert. I mean, real desert sand and nothing. Just sand out in the desert. So they shared that solution and that solution is being replicated in , the Northern part of Nigeria where you, or you have those massive droughts that is making those places, you know, as dry as you’d have in the middle east.

So it’s, seeing something that, that is working somewhere else, it may not be the exact situation but you see that is repeatable in your own local environment or in your own situation or country. And then just copying shamelessly, just speak up the solution and replicated. And if you need to take to the solution a bit by all means, go ahead and do that. And I mean, just imagine if that’s hydroponic solution can be replicated in such a way that it’s across the entire area, you’re going to stop the massive migration of people from the north to the south. And they will be happy to stay where they’ve, they’ve built their culture. They’ve built their livelihood for many years, because most people don’t want to migrate because of existential threats.

Melanie: Yeah, and it’s aligned with the way that we used the word technology. So we talk about believing in a world where technology benefits all, we’re actually not talking about the shiny stuff. Not necessarily, we’re talking about. It could be something that’s endemic to one area and it’s taken, given a slight twist and, and put back, or perhaps it’s sort of taken, modified and introduced elsewhere.

So there’s multiple ways of viewing technology. But certainly the example that you’ve given is the way that we think of the use of the word technology in terms of our organizations. 

Chris: Yeah. And maybe to also touch on the other question you asked about how young engineers can influence within their companies.

 It’s, it’s in my opinion, there’s so many little things that can be done. So the first thing is there needs to be an awareness of the things that can be done. So if young engineers, if young professionals first of allsit back and say,’ Hey, can I get a list of say 10 solutions’? Even if I have only two, can I get together a number of young professionals, young engineers, youth like myself to pull together a long list of possible solutions that are applicable to our location from low cost options, to even the ones that require significant financial support.

Right? And then. I think most people will be willing and happy to contribute some some parts of the organizational time and resources to develop those solutions and implement them. Most leaders that I’ve had the opportunity of having a conversation with are looking for opportunities to, if not, even for care for the world and care for creation and care for the, the, the, the climate crisis, just for the reputation, they want to do something for ESG, right?

So if you put the options on the table to say, Hey, we’ve got this opportunity to plant say, hundred trees in some area in Sydney, just as an example. Let’s do it. And how much does it cost it’s costs only say a thousand dollars from the bottom line. It’s usually not a lot for say big corporations to cough out a thousand dollars for that kind of solution.

It’s good for the PR anyways. Yeah. So why not? So it’s, it’s important to, first of all, have a long list if possible, or potential solutions understand what value means to the organization you work for and tie the solutions to value the moment you’re able to do that, then it’s a no brainer. Everybody wants to be part of a winning team, so they just give their support to it and make it.

Melanie: Yeah, thank you. In Australia engineers, that borders was one of the co-founders of the Australian. Engineer’s declare a climate and biodiversity crisis movements. So it’s the declare movement and there’s There’s some movement similar to this in the UK and Canada and Europe, sort of all over the world.

And although in many ways we would consider the launch and the growing movement of professionals a success I think there’s about 2000 signatures on that declaration. So it’s a, a 12 point declaration. That was sort of phase one of, of the campaign and phase two was around taking action.

So first it was about being visible and, and, you know, making a statement and the second was okay, so what are we going to do about it? But when I looked at the peak bodies registration list, I think there’s a hundred thousand engineers in Australia. So 2000 have signed. The sector’s leading, climate change declaration.

So there’s a lot of work to be done here in Australia. There’s a lot of influence that’s that’s needed. And I greatly appreciate the advice on, on how to take those steps you know, towards the kind of outcomes that we’re all hoping for.

So at this point in the conversation, I’d love to talk about hope, hope doesn’t come from positive circumstance, not usually, or if ever, and it’s not guaranteed a positive outcome. So I’m wondering after COP 26, what’s your position in relationship to hope? Do you have hope or what gives you hope or what sustains you in, in this work that you’re doing, which is so incredibly important.

Milda: I can start that’s okay. With this regard, I don’t think much about the hope. I think it’s about the action. What to hope for if one can, can add something to it, what was smaller or bigger thing, or, but I don’t think that we need to hope anything, but just rather think, what we can do.

Melanie: Excellent. And that’s why you’re such a perfect Actioneer it’s so great. Chris, for you, does hope resonate for you or is it action that you identify with? 

Chris: Yeah, so it’s it’s so it’s, I wear different hats at different times. So when I wear the hats of someone coming out of one of the least developed countries, i, I need a lot of hope and the reason why I need that hope is just looking around and seeing what’s going on as the result of climate change. And some other factors, you need to be hopeful to be able to drive, from that perspective. 

And the reason why this is important for me to hope is when, when I look at the situation, for instance, in all of Africa, Africa contributes less than 3% of GHG emissions globally. And if you look historically the more far back you look, the less it is, and it’s just seeing that Africa doesn’t contribute, to this problem, but it’s suffering massively from the result of the of what’s going on is is quite depressing to see. So the hope is that, and of course, like you said, hope comes from situations that are not pleasurable that are not exciting to look at. 

In terms of action all I’m basically looking at is how do we start the action from an individual level? So for instance in COP 26, we had the most youth involvement youth leaders and young professionals involvement in the, in the whole, you know, negotiation and the process that happens.

That’s a positive, but going on from there, the question I’m asking is, young people are going to be disproportionately affected by climate change. So we need to build our capacity very quickly and facilitate our participation in all of the conversation from policy development and implementation to contributing, to actually driving meaningful action.

And one of the things that we’re looking in terms of action is. Making the youths ready, and basically understanding the whole process of lobbying and having a conversation at those massive forums.

And it’s not just that the world stage, but also at the local stage, what can we do to influence the negotiation? This is from the different national parties before they come to the co-op. So th those are the things that we’re looking at. And right now everybody has gone back home to, you know, to start working that process. 

Melanie: Well, speaking to you, both has definitely given me such hope. I am astounded by the work that you’re doing, the complexity, the skill, your devotion.

Yeah. Wow. There’s just so much of what you said that is still landing for me. And I think that I’ll be mulling over many of the answers over the days to come. So I’m so grateful to both of you for coming on to our podcast and talking to us and inspiring, the next generation of young engineers. 

[00:00:00]

Eleanor: We’re here today to talk with Marlene, Marlene, welcome and big congratulations. Can you tell me a little more about yourself and your personal journey? What inspired you to become an engineer?

Marlene: Yes. Thanks. Thanks for having me, Eleanor. It’s a real pleasure and I’m a great supporter of Engineers Without Borders and have been for many years. And it very much aligns with my idea for engineering.

So I always wanted to be an engineer. I mean my father was an engineer, one of the first engineers to graduate just before independence in India. And so he quickly to quite senior positions and was involved in all kinds of very interesting infrastructure projects. He was actually an electrical and mechanical engineer, but he was involved in the building of roads and the electrification of large parts of the country airports and so on.

And at that time, India received a lot of aid from the United States and other countries. And he often took me along to this project. That was a big [00:01:00] calculus plan coming in at night. You know, we’d go together to the airport and see the big road rollers coming off the plane. Or if an airport was going to be lit up by the minister the next day, he take me for the test the previous evening and say, you can be the first to turn on the lights.

I had, I had the sense of excitement about engineering. To me, it was just the most exciting profession. And it also I liked the way it, I understood how things worked. I loved that. And that was quite inquisitive. I was very good at mathematics and science, so it just came naturally. And no one in my family or in my circle told me girls don’t do engineering.

So I grew up in a very sheltered you know, family background quite privileged in India, went to an all girls convent school, where they tell you the nuns actually encourage you to think that girls can do anything, but they will also horrified that I was doing advanced mathematics without the teacher.

I was so headstrong. My father started me off and then that was [00:02:00] it. And then finally, in my last six months of high school, they found me a teacher because there were no teachers in that school teach advanced mathematics. So it was a big shock when I arrived at university and found that there were very few women there and that’s where I discovered there wasn’t many girls in engineering, but I, I just enjoyed the work and I still love it.

I have to say, I say to people, don’t tell them how much I enjoy. But even if they didn’t pay me, I’d still do this work because I love the, the fact of the impact that it has, that it improves people’s lives and that it makes a difference. And I think there are very few professions that do that. In medicine that is well known and people understand that but engineers improve health in large numbers, like with clean water and sanitation, but we just don’t communicate that impact enough. And that’s where I’m coming from. That’s the passion that has driven me through my career and through all the obstacles and barriers that I’ve faced. That’s [00:03:00] that vision has sustained me.

Eleanor: So you can feel the potential, you can feel the impact that’s possible. And it’s interesting. I hadn’t actually thought about it like that before about that, that impact at scale, you know, cause we do know that, you know, doctors and lawyers and so on, they can make significant change, but engineering does play a particular role.

It, must’ve been challenging, you know, growing up in India and being in a girls school and not having access to a maths teacher , you’ve had challenges in your life and, and here you are today with this incredible outcome.

 What are some of the problems that we need to solve now? What do you see are the critical sort of issues that we’re facing in the sector?

Marlene: Well, I think that the most critical is the fact that we don’t have enough engineers and in many countries of the world, I mean in Australia, in fact, we depend we rely on a migration and in 2012, I think it flipped. With more than 50% of engineers in Australia, overseas born because for more than 25 years, we’ve had about the same number graduating in [00:04:00] Australia. And in other countries, the issue is even more acute.

And when I say engineers, it’s not just professional engineers, but technologists and technicians as well, who have an important role. I think the other issue is to engage more women in engineering because it’s basically, it’s 50% of the world’s brainpower. If we want to increase the number of engineers and to have more sustainable solutions, we need a broader perspective and we need to harness that brain power.

And that message is slowly getting through in, in, in some countries in Asia. In Africa and in Latin America, where engineering is a relatively new profession. So some of the norms of behavior and culture, aren’t that entrenched. So you have, you’re getting up to 30 to 50%, which is what we’re looking for women, but in the profession, but many in the developed world, this is where the numbers are still very new.

Eleanor: So, what do you think it is that we’ll, switch those statistics on, you know, women and other [00:05:00] diverse cohorts onto engineering as, a potential career path.

Marlene: So there’s two parts. One is within organization. It’s clearly is a leadership issue. It’s up to the leaders to change the culture.

In engineering the culture is so endemic. So entrenched people don’t even notice that there’s a particular culture. But it is possible through leadership. And for example, in engineering, we’ve made huge changes in the safety culture. In the last 20 years and I’ve got photographs of workers on sites in shorts and thongs, no safety helmet you know, hard hats, no gloves, et cetera, no PP at all. And she’ll be right attitude. Whereas today, even if the chair of the board turned up without the safety gear on, they wouldn’t let them onsite. So safety culture has transformed, and this is a leadership. The leadership has done it in engineering organizations they c learly put out the message that this is important to us. It’s [00:06:00] important to us as, as a team to look after our employees together, it safety is non-negotiable and and it’s a just culture as well. So if there is an incident, no one gets punished, but, but you investigate what happened. You try to learn and do better. This strategy can be applied to diversity and inclusion.

And in fact, I developed such a strategy which has been implemented quite successfully in several engineering organizations and. It’s you know, for engineering leaders, because they’ve done it for safety. They don’t even have to read the strategy, they get it straight away and they get that. You record a moment that’s when it starts to be implemented.

So I think it really needs a change in culture. The second part,is to encourage more young people to into engineering, it’s a communication issue where we’ve got to go out more into the community, into schools, you know, at high school level to career advisors to teach us to parents and talk [00:07:00] to them about engineering, because it’s got such a low profile that engineering is not considered as a career choice today.

Eleanor: Do you think that there’s a intersection between your passion for the SDGs and sustainable engineering and the positive impact that engineering can have on the world and, and the message that we tell young people. Do you think that intersection would help to generate interest?

Marlene: Absolutely. Okay. Because young people more than ever today, want careers that make a difference. They don’t want to just sit at a desk and push paper around the top of the keyboard, but they want to know that what they’re doing is having an impact and engineering, like no other profession enables you to have that impact and the link with the sustainable development goals.

It creates a wonderful narrative of how engineering is important for everyone of those sustainable development goals. And I started on the journey of creating this narrative. When I was planning was working with non-engineering staff in London, in the institution of civil [00:08:00] engineers.

And they said, oh, engineering has nothing to do with sustainable development goals. So I set out. Prove them wrong. And that became the core of the second UNESCO engineering report, which is actually called now engineering for sustainable development. But that message has been embraced around the world, enthusiastically, because everybody gets it, they see that connection and they love it.

And the engineers, most of all love it because it suddenly gives them a meaning and an impetus to their work. Most importantly, to talk about it in a non-technical way, in a way that relates to two people, because everyone wants to know what’s in it for me. And you can relate that quite clearly. Yeah.

Eleanor: So you had this vision of, integrating the sustainable development goals and looked at the global competencies and professional attributes. Talk to me about that journey and how and how you ended up here with this incredible outcome. Well, it was, it was very strategic.

Marlene: I’m a bang for buck girl. And I try to get things at maximum impact with [00:09:00] minimum effort not that this had, didn’t have a lot of work and didn’t involve a lot of work, but I was thinking far ahead, I had this great vision to transform the engineering profession from the inside out and how better to transform it then how you teach and train graduates at the university level. That’s where you’re laying the foundations for culture, for the commitment to lifelong learning, for critical thinking for working inclusively in teams, that’s where you learn. And then you take that through. Your professional life. And so, you know, rather than doing research and talking about the need for, for all these different aspects, you know, there were so many that had to be included in a, in a contemporary forward-looking profession that ready to solve the, you know, the most challenging problems that the world is now facing.

You know, I decided to do something about it and doing it from the inside out was, was the way we went. And that’s was the impetus for reviewing the [00:10:00] graduate attributes and professional competencies. And it w it took a lot of. Todd thinking and developing the path, the pathway, the roadmap, and then communicating that to our partners, including the international engineering Alliance.

So there’s a journey that started in 2018 and I spoke to a lot, a lot of people and had to convince them and convince them not in a theoretical fashion, but in a show in a practical way, how it could be done. And. It’s because we’ve thought it through so deeply, we were able to progress it very quickly.

It’s quite remarkable. We really only started in November, 2019 and we had a cut in June 2020, very fast. And then it was embraced wholeheartedly by, the world by even non signatories of the international engineering Alliance. And I’m so grateful for the support from Engineers Without Borders and all your chapters.

Because you represented the [00:11:00] voice of young engineers and we wanted everyone to have a voice. We had consultation with industry women, which had never happened before large numbers. We talked to the research engineering education groups around the world in Asia and Europe and Latin America. And EWB.

Crucial in bringing the voice of young engineers from so many chapters and collectively everyone, you know, there were tweaks here and there, but at the end of the day, there was huge support. The signatories of the IAA also participated very strongly and had many webinars you know, right up to the time that they approved it.

But I have to say it wasn’t a slam dunk. Right to the end. We weren’t sure how it would go. And it was, and go for a while. Yeah, I know. I remember that guy crossed the line and I think it’s incredible. It’s also incredible that UNESCO. Supported it all the way. And its logo is now on this standard, which is really historic because it’s saying that this is, this [00:12:00] is the way we want a future engineers to be.

And yeah. And, and some of the areas I might add also like the ethical framework, we broadened the meaning of what is meant by. I’ve got professional technical ethics, but environmental inclusion, social and so on. So I think that there were many, many significant changes. And even now when we sit back and ponder it, we can see how much there is in there.

But it’s also, devilishly simple, it’s simple language straight forward, but there’s a whole lot in. Well, even when you touch on, like you just mentioned the S the change, the ethical framework and, and social ethics and environmental ethics, and then there’s a whole, I imagine now globally, a whole unpacking of what that means.

And, and how do you actually assist that? Is there any sort of next steps? Yes, there is absolutely next steps. And it’s very interesting that one of the things we were very careful about was not prescribing how it should be. And that was done very deliberately because we wanted. Each [00:13:00] member nation, each signatory to take it on and, and interpreted and make it its own.

So there’s a principle of equivalence in terms of the signatories and mutual recognition of SU of the engineering education across the international engineering Alliance. And so you recognize equivalents, but each nation can do it their own way, adapt the engineering curriculum and how it’s taught and the practical work to make sure that it’s relevant to that country, to its culture.

And so, and so it makes sense. It’s not imposed from outside it’s from within. And so. This again is an idea that has been embraced by the signatories and some are going faster than others. In fact, it was quite interesting in June while some signatories were saying, oh, it’s going to be very difficult.

One of the signatories, relatively new ones said we’ve already done it. We implementing it in retraining, our academics, which is Pakistan. Oh, fantastic. So I know that China is [00:14:00] moving very fast. They’ve got a big event coming up early next year to implement. They’re very excited about it. They’ve embraced.

 Aspects of the new technologies, the way it prepares engineers for new technology. So each, each nation has found something new in there, but the underpinning of the UN sustainable development goals, there is also very important. And, and you know, is again informing that broader impact of engineering that comes from that education.

So when they’re looking at all parts of the framework now, are they referring back to the UN SDGs? Is that how that’s the sort of foundation? Yeah. And again, what we did very deliberately was not to list the 17 goals specifically and say, you’ve got to do A, B and C, but , reference the UN sustainable development goals.

So again, leaving it, it’s like an open exam question, leaving it very open-ended for, for various signatories and nations to take on as much as, or as [00:15:00] little as they wish, as, as long as they maintain, they can demonstrate that equivalence. And I think over time, this is going to evolve. We’ll start to see a model of implementation as this interpretation goes through.

Eleanor: And how does it work then going forward? Is there an opportunity to come back together every year and hear how China’s doing it and how Pakistan is doing and others are doing it like community of practice almost?

Marlene: Yeah, absolutely. They will be there, there will be ongoing webinars.

So I actually spoke at one a couple of days ago on a last Friday. You know, where they were addressing this question. And so each, each jurisdiction will have their you know, discussions with their academics. And then the International Engineering Alliance will I’m sure have their discussions bringing together their signatories and the World Federation of Engineering Organizations will have their discussions with their members.

So there’s some crossover between members of the two groups, but not everyone’s , in both. [00:16:00] So, so we’re suddenly, you know, it’s very early days, but this is just beginning. This is, this is going to have a life of its own.

Eleanor: It’s so inspiring. It’s so wonderful. And of course EWB is always happy to help. I’m interested to know what kind of, you know, for, for the women engineers out there and those who are moving into, cause we’re going to need to see more women engineers in leadership roles. And you’re an excellent example of how change can happen when you’re in these kinds of roles what did you need to to remember or hold true to through this process? The last two years of getting these changes through as, as a, a woman in a man’s world. I mean, I don’t know how many other women they were around that table, but you were leading, leading on this. I’d love to hear some of your sort of you know, what, what you carried, carried with you through that process.

Marlene: Yeah, I have to say that I’ve throughout my career. I’ve been the only woman woman in the room. In fact, I, I have worked with other women on very rare occasions, so, [00:17:00] so I’m, so I’m not phased by that.

And, and I’m carried by, I suppose, my my conviction and vision of what needs to be done, the work that needs to be done. And I also prepare thoroughly, you know what makes the topic, the subject matter and so on. So I put in a great deal of work in that as well. And I, and, but the bottom line is I actually didn’t think about the fact that I was a woman there never occurred to me I just, I just went on and just did the work. So. Yeah, and I, I consider it a privilege, I, to have the opportunity, so to have the opportunity to, to make such a change even though it was an enormous amount of work, you know, seven days a week, you just put everything else aside, personal and family and social, but, you know, for me, it was just a must do. And because it was an opportunity for me in my hands, I just could not say no. Yeah. It was just a matter of just had to get on [00:18:00] with it and do it. And I do, I do see it as a, as an enormous privilege.

I wanted to also go back and add on EWB. I think in terms of implementing, I wanted to add the, the graduate attributes.

The implementation is not so much, you know, learn theoretical topics in the curriculum, but it’s also includes hands-on work. And I think the opportunities that EWB provides in terms of its projects is huge because those projects bring together many elements. The graduate attributes framework in terms of leadership, working in teams, communicating, being innovative, developing solutions in tough conditions with limited resources and, you know, protecting the environment and so on.

You know, I think in one of the activities and promoting this framework is to promote to have a hackathon, a problem solving challenge for young engineers that will relate to the sustainable development goals and some of the[00:19:00] graduate attributes. And we’re hoping that universities will see that and encourage young people to participate in that.

In future. One of the ideas we have is to showcase the work being done by Engineers Without Borders and the chapters around the world and demonstrate how they align in a practical way to achieving the graduate attributes. And hopefully that will give many young people around the world, the opportunity to work on real life projects, and most importantly, to see firsthand how they can have a positive impact through engineering.

Eleanor: Yes. Thank you. I’m more than happy to help with that. Even in Australia, this is as an aside, even in Australia, we, we actually looked at the professional competencies too. And we worked with EA on t he competencies that engineers who’d been on our field trips and worked with us overseas and how that aligned with the, the professional competencies too.

 There’s a huge urgency around the world, around the environment and [00:20:00] environmental ethics engineers have a huge role to play and a leadership role to play really in, in what’s going to happen next for our planet. When you were discussing this over the last two years and putting these, these changes into the framework, what was the general sense , around the table? What did people say was important for engineering around environmental sustainability and ethics?

Marlene: Yeah, there was no question that that was important, that that was recognized. And I think what’s lacking is the ability of engineers to feel that they can speak up. Even if you’re in a junior role, my, my messages that you are still a leader, you’re a leader, whatever position you are, and you need to lead that thinking and, speak up and make those changes that make a difference because very often engineering solutions can be changed to achieve the outcomes that, the customer wants or that, the stakeholder needs that you’re looking for while also delivering on those social ethical sustainability [00:21:00] ideals as well. There’s always a way, and that’s the beauty of engineering.

It’s, you know, you, you can be innovative and creative and think through how that can be done. And it’s a bit harder, but, but, you know, I don’t think it’s impossible. And I don’t think that that there’s is an exclusion issue there, but, but really it’s a matter of inclusion and, and same with diversity and so on.

You’ve just got to find the way and, and we found that, for example, in COVID we found a way we quickly found a way to work online and so on because we were forced to do so. And we’ve just simply got to find that way and i hope for climate change, that we start to make those changes now because the next 10 years are going to be so crazy.

Eleanor: Absolutely. Engineers are often invited into the room, aren’t they, you know, you will often see an engineer at the, in the room and yet there does seem to be a hesitation in speaking up or is it, do you think it’s a confidence or is it, is it just not the natural bent?

Marlene: Well, I think as engineers, [00:22:00] we, we stick to the technical stuff, but, but the fact is that n othing can be done, for example, with respect to climate change without engineering. So engineering absolutely has to be in that room. It’s not the policymakers or the politicians or the financial people, or the lawyers who are going to make it happen.

It’s the engineers and the scientists like my dad who will come up with those clever solutions and we’ll employ design and implement them. So we have to have that voice and we need to have that confidence of saying we are the people that are going to make this happen. And here’s how we think it should happen and not get dictated by those who don’t have scientific or technical background. So it’s just a matter of confidence in being able to speak up as, as a community and as a profession. And I I’m hoping, for example, students through the new framework, education framework will develop those attributes in being able to communicate. Communication was considered one of the key [00:23:00] areas.

It was very interesting. It was one of the top areas, teaching engineers to communicate in everywhere, written and verbal and in different contexts. As well use of IT tools, which has become ubiquitous across all the disciplines. So, so these are some of the areas that are so important and that I hope will inform the way engineers engage with society and future.

Eleanor: Hmm. Yeah, because it’s concerning if that doesn’t happen, isn’t it like, you know, I think that there needs to be more engineers and they need to be confident to speak up. And I think that’s completely right. And I think the framework helps to clarify that.

I think it’s very clear in there. So this is an opportunity now for you to. Tell us what’s most on your mind? What are you, what do you want? Anyone listening to our podcast to hear this? This is your opportunity to stand up and say what, next for Marlene Kanga and what next for engineers?

Marlene: Yeah. Well, I think for me, it’s all about the outcomes. It’s not about me personally. And if I’ve [00:24:00] managed to facilitate something and set the ball rolling for for an idea or an issue that will have ongoing impact, well, then that’s the greatest achievement for me. And I think that communicating the role of engineering to the broader community, community, to moms and dads, to teachers, career advisors and most importantly to young people so that they can aspire to be an engineer and have that vision that I can change the world. You know, I have, I will get the tools really make a genuine change. That’s very important and I wanted to advocate for World Engineering Day for Sustainable Development.

It was. A big idea. And when I embarked on it, I had no idea how I was going to get there. Unlike the graduate attributes framework, we had thought it through this one. I hadn’t. And every time I met someone, they told me a little bit more on how it could be done. And at one point I’d actually given up. But every time I thought it’s too hard, somebody else would tell me [00:25:00] something and I would go on and we got, got it across the line. It was an incredible roller coaster ride. I have to say you know, I sat until midnight at the UNESCO executive board meeting in Paris. You know, just waiting for the decision to be made and it wasn’t made and you know, things like that, but eventually we got there and it’s, it’s been a phenomenal success. It’s grown from just in the last two years, reaching 32 million in 20, 22 and year three, we hope to exceed a hundred million with hundreds of events all around the world. We have engineers. You know, celebrating spontaneously, which is what we want. We have one community to celebrate spontaneously.

So for example, in 2021, we had the little town of Rochester in the UK light up a bridge Rochester bridge for world engineering day. And you know, that’s great. That’s terrific. That’s the message. Of the wonder of engineering being communicated in Rochester. And we want everyone around the world to do something similar to, [00:26:00] you know, to communicate, to have a party or whatever, and to talk everything engineering and to say that really it’s not boring, but it actually makes our work, makes our economy, keeps us healthy, keeps us moving and makes life modern life so good. So really I think World Engineering Dayis another great w ay of communicating about engineering, we’ve sort of opened the door for engineers and giving them the opportunity and many have taken it up.

The Twitter feed was phenomenal, 20, 21, and we think it’s only going to get better in 2022. So that’s my soapbox celebrate World Engineering Day on the 4th of March each year.

Eleanor: And we’ve got the hackathon. Do you want to talk a little bit about the hackathon?

Marlene: I think the hackathon is a key event of World Engineering Day.

And this is one where we focus on young engineers and engineering student. And we would like engineering students to work on one of three challenges, which we’re going to pose in early January which they will have to work in teams and, and [00:27:00] develop a solution that’s innovative creative, advances one or more of the UN Sustainable Development Goals and of the best of all the submissions we’ll pick eight or 10 and make them into videos which will be shown on world Engineering Day in a 24 hour live streaming event that will be held around the world on the 4th of March, 2022.

So I’m really inviting all engineering students in particular around the world to take part in this challenge, it’s being supported by Engineers Without Borders, and it really is, is a way to achieve some of the requirements of the graduate attributes and professional competencies framework.

Eleanor: So here you’ve come from India, turning the lights on at the airport to now having people turn on lights for engineering in Rochester going forward, there’ll be solar lights and they’ll be women who designed them, women engineers, you’ve had an amazing journey and look what you’ve achieved. I’m [00:28:00] really so, so grateful to be speaking with you and so thankful for your time today. If people want to contact you or want to learn more about the hackathon or learn more about your story or where we go from here with the global attributes, where do we find out more information?

Marlene: Well, there’s two places. There’s a website for World Engineering Day, which is www.worldengineeringday.net. And you can also go to the. World Federation of Engineering organization :website,www.WEFO.org and if you do a search under engineering education, you’ll find the framework and you’ll find lots of information on some of the issues that I’ve talked about.

Eleanor: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for your time. I’ve loved talking with you.

Marlene: Thank you. That’s been a great privilege and I really enjoyed it. Thank you very much.